Some Issues of Concern

[Shadow Walker]

I make NO assumptions about staff regarding what you do or don't know or whether you've played UO since the Beta. I am pretty sure I have played nearly as long as you. I am just amazed that you will ABSOLUTELY not consider any modifications to the pet permanent stat loss issue. That demonstrates your insensitivity and dismissive attitude toward tamers I alluded to earlier.

How about this suggestion, Staff? How about implementing permanent durability loss to all armor and weapons when a warrior dies that can not be mitigated or undone by having applied Self Repair deeds or by other means? That would include jewelry, which would be permanently damaged at each death as might be expected to actually happen in reality. Kind of like having the gemstone in a ring break if you were in a car accident. You know, similar to the comment one of your players made about pets dying in real life.

How about permanent or very long term intelligence and magery skill losses (ALL of the mage-related skills) for spell casters and permanent or long term reductions in bardic skills when players of that classes die? Would those changes not put all the players on a more even balance? Would those changes not be more fair?

Your argument and edict in your recent post reference the unique nature of many of the difficult mobs and boss-types. You extol the virtue of learning to cope with each and to expand play style so that ways can be found to defeat those mobs. What you did NOT do is properly address the UNFAIRNESS of permanent pet stat loss. Until you implement the debilitating changes for the other classes that results in permanent degradation to THEIR armor and weapons (as you freely allow for our pets and their armor and weapons), you will NOT have a fair and honorable environment for Ranger/Tamers.

It is ironic to me that the founders and current staff of this shard have a mythology and history of Guardians maintaining an idyllic world, with the involvement and help of Rangers, who commune with animals of every type and then create game mechanics that are so unfair Ranger/Tamers and their pets. Permanent pet stat loss is OUR version of having the defensive and offensives capabilities of all other player classes permanently degraded. Perhaps this is something for you to consider.

Shadow Walker

[Falkor]

I have not displayed a "dismissive" attitude toward anyone. The word you are looking for is inflexible. WP did not introduce pet stat loss; it is as old as the game itself. We just chose not to implement methods to counteract it. That was a carefully measured decision and it is permanent despite any amount of verbiage hurled onto the screen.

Instead of being a flash in the pan, this shard has survived for 5 1/2 years because of the balance in the current system. Pets are a tool and not a crutch as they are on so many other servers. It may not be perfect to all people but it is our way, and it works.

[Shadow Walker]

Allow me to correct myself, then, Falkor. You are, in fact, inflexible in general and I feel dismissive to me. (I do have some meager ability with language) Good luck with your well-engineered shard that has stood the test of time and survived the suggestions of tamer-rabble like myself. I would suggest that you founders and staff edit your new-player information so that it is patently clear to prospective tamers that those maximum level 30 pets that take so long to tame are just tools (not crutches) and will undergo permanent stat losses after dying. In that way, they can make sound judgments about whether this is the best home for them, as tamers. They can even read this thread, if it survives.

Thanks again to Forgepriest for his support and attempts to persuade you that permanent stat loss is bad. Regards to the other players on WP that were friends to me.

73 to most of you.
Shadow "Walker

[Exodus]

The stat loss in itself I think can be viewed as an economy play. I had a steel steed lvl 25, and he could tank most anything. But after about 150 deaths he was getting old and weak and I started looking around for another one, which I purchased. I then sold my used horse to a newer player who could benefit from him even in his weakened state.

I do find the permanent loss annoying, but taming IS the most powerful skill in the game. It's used to fill BODs to obtain the bio-engineering book, then further used to create dna vials and eventually to control your bio pet. The bio pet is incredible, and in 6 months of having mine, he has never died.

If you understand that you will not solo everything if you limit yourself to one playstyle, then you'll be ok. But remember, that limitation is placed upon yourself by yourself.. not by the shard.

[Shadow Walker]

With all due respect, Exodus, this shard is touted as a custom shard and the permanent pet stat loss here, in Falkor's own statements, was (and is) a studied decision made by the founders and staff. When pet stat loss existed on OSI, I do not recall any really high-level pets that would compare to the Steel Steed or even the FuzzyPinkUnicorns (cute little name someone conceived). On OSI we used mares, usually, along with dragons, white wyrms, or rune beetles which were plentiful and were (relatively) easy to replace. On WP, permanent pet stat loss AND pet-killer MOBs exist, which strongly suggests to me an anti-tamer bias on the part of (at least) some of the founders and designers.

WHY are the cards are so stacked against tamers here that we tamers must resort to developing the additional skill sets needed to cope with many mobs? Why can't we just be .... Tamers .... and be equally able to succeed with the tough mobs? I do not feel that the pets that exist here are so overpowered as to warrant the stat loss and pet killers that were created and put into play on WP. Why, on a custom shard where the balance is said to be optimized, are there no permanent degrading influences for warriors, spell casters, and all the other classes that erode the player's offensive and defensive capabilities the way the pets (our offensive and defensive elements) are?

A player who reviews this ongoing thread with an unbiased eye SHOULD be able to see at least some valid points that I have raised. Yet, the rules here remain fixed and immutable.

Thank you, Exodus, for your comments and thoughts.

Shadow Walker

[Exodus]

I can't say your point about both stat loss and pet killers in invalid. Just have to work around it. Falkor made some good points.

[GhostRiderGrey]

Pet hunters, and monsters that hit pets hard, were implemented because players with certain pets were able to easily defeat even the boss/champ monsters without lifting a finger. Currently they can still do that, but the key is good pet management. Pet hunters are easily defeated. A close eye kept on pets will keep them from dying (and possibly loosing stats). If you just send them in as a meat shield/tank and don't manage them, yes they will die and possible take stat damage.

Shadow Walker, I'm sorry that you don't agree with how we have laid out the pet system here in the Pines. You are entitled to your opinion, and to disagree with ours, and we are entitled to do the same.

Save travels,

-Ghost

[Forgepriest]

Ok ..... back to this again ....

I was reading the posts here ..... i fell pitty that others than me, Shadow Walker, Falkor, Ghost and Exodus are not in the talking here .... maybe is because they realize that this is going to nowhere ..... maybe ..... but i fell that at least i should go on ..... i defende this shard in so much ocasions that i think that i have the right to discuss this ..... so let's do it .....

I fell when i read all the posts that staff just dont want to say:"yes, it is unfair, and that is what we want here for tamers, no more easy life for them", and if staff belives in that, for me ok, what is not ok is say that this is balanced, that for me is not ok ......

I will begin using Falkor's words in a post above:"There will always be areas of the game that cannot be defeated using a particular play style. Some mobs can't be killed using direct mele - it would be suicide for any player with any equipment. Some are easier to defeat using magery, or ranged weapons, or (gasp) pets" ....

Well ... this is not true by my eyes Falkor ..... sorry to say that, but i see that ranged weapons here in this shard is like tamer in others ..... i didn't see a place yeat that a ranged player cant go and do well ..... so let me tell you that balance here is not right .....

I read a lot of this expression "meat shield" let me tell you all this .... in case you staff dont play as tamer .... a pet for a tamer is a shield and his weapon, we use a pet to defend and atack, i never see in my life playing UO, and i play since 1999, a player that comes with his pet, say "all stay" and go atack the monster by himself leting the pet just waching the scene .... pet is a shield for tamers ladys and gentleman .... and a weapon ... if you guys dont know that .... so you should learn .......

Saying that ..... i will say this ..... a player with a good gear and a bow, go in any place of the shard .... a tamer dont, and we are not talking about some areas Falkor, we are talking about Bosses, perlless, almost all champions, except oasis, and some dungeons ......

Ghost .... you are owner, and i am too here, by my own server in home ..... create a player acount for you (if you dont have one), create a char, equip him, give him a good pet like legendary wyrm level 30, and go alone kill ancient wyrm in destard level 3 ..... try to kill all best wax in there with your pet as a tamer would do, and please invite me to see it .... i wanna see if you alone will survive in there .... just you and your pet ...... and i am naming one place .... i can give you another ones if you want me to .......

It is simple to me that balance in this case dont exist .... and if you staff just say that, for me discution is gonna be over ..... my reasons is this ones:

First - Exodus ... you are right, tame is a powerfull skill, use in lots of things, but is a tought one to raise it, i mean after 110, find powerscrolls and raise it is a pain in the b...., so i began to say it is not easy to be a tamer ....

Second - i saw for sale in donation house this Deed "self repair +5", well if you put two of those in all of your equipament like i did you dont lose it anymore by destroing the equipament, so if i am a ranged player with that, i dont need nothing more .... so why just tamers must lose things? if a wizard, a necrowizard, a warrior dont lose nothing in their profession anymore, not stats when die, dont lose armor because of self repair +10, why tamers must lose pet stat? see my point? there IS NO BALANCE IN THERE!!!!!!

Third - get the right pet ..... pick up a good pet is not easy task, you got have the skills for it, and must have luck to drop a pet with a maximum level over 27 ...... not a easy task guys .... belive me i am trying to do some pets .... and i am not going to talk about some good pets that respawn after 24 hours and only in one spot .... like Rain Pet .... so if this is not a good reason ... so ....

Fourth - Pet killers, even the weaken ones like spectral, kill pets too fast .... in one hit or two .... combine that with a common mob you cant just control, and we are not going to say here shard LAG because i belive it would be cowardice of mine in use this argument ... but we know that exist, and kill pets some time ....

The problem that i see is that pets like the ones we talk here (spectral, best wax among others) kills pet to fast .... they hit pets really too strong .... i look my server here, look in others shards i play, i login in my old acount in UO official to see there .... this kind of pets i just see here, and that is what unbalace the game ... if you Ghost want to dificult for tamers, i think the aproch is wrong, give more life to some bosses, resistance, but a monster that kills pet in 2 hits is too much (almost all of my pets has 1k life, how do i heal 500HP in one use?) ..... not even a good meele warrior die in 2 hits ..... for me is clear the unbalacement here ..... if you wanna keep pet killers, so let pet loss over .... because both are too much for tamers .....

With all of this in mind .... i just can say that is not balanced ..... it cant be ....... sorry to disapoint .....

If staff are REALLY CONCERN in made the game balanced, it would be nice AT LEAST, take off pet loss in death ..... or even creat a Deed that a player can buy like self repair ones to use in pet ..... or somehow create something that a tamer can "repair" his pet using Vet skill ... that it would be walking for a balance game ....

I think i made myself clear .....

Thanks for your time!

Forgepriest

[Falkor]

Don't confuse "balance" with "equality." Being 100% tamer and nothing else will not give the same game play as being a warrior or mage and we realize that. We will never have a setup where you can tell your pets "all kill" and sit back and watch while they destroy your target. Taming is best when used with other skills, not instead of them.

We aren't stupid. We get the point that weapons and armor can be given self-repair while pets cannot. By "balance" we mean that content isn't ruled by any one item. You can't pick a single sword, pet, or magical item and run over all the mobs in the game with it. You're still viewing the shard from the perspective of a beginner. One, two, or three months simply isn't long enough to gauge the overall difficulty of anything on the shard. What's tough for you now might be a breeze for you in a year or two, and we've got to be set up for that now rather than changing things over and over as players progress.

BTW, killing a wax monster as a mage or warrior is no easy task either. It isn't just pets they kill quickly. The same thing can be said for leather, wood, or ore elementals. They can kill a player in one hit, even before they are seen on the screen, yet nobody claims we are unfair to crafters.

You can't focus on any one thing and decide if it is balanced. It's the shard as a whole, and I think it's going pretty well. It will not be the ideal shard for everyone so we concentrate on making it the best for those who do wish to call it home.

[Forgepriest]

Well ....

As some of you may know .... i am from Brasil .... i worked here in my country as a translator by some years now .... what i want to say is that my english is a litlle rusty, but not dead .... so i go search in the web, and i find Oxford English dictionary(http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/) to understand if i read wrong or i write wrong ...... so let me tell you this Falkor .... you may not want to say "balance" equals "equality" but the dictionary has another opinion ..... "establish equal or appropriate proportions of elements" .... well saying that .....

What i have to say now is this ..... perspective of a beginner .... no friend ... i will disagree with you ..... as i told before, i go to another shards ..... and in there there isn't this kind of unbalance game as here, tamers there has tools to survive .... you talk about best wax are harder for warriors and mages ..... in how much hits a best wax kills a player? let me tell you that i already test it .... a single best wax kills me in 3 to 4 hits ..... and i have 110HP, a single one kill my pet Dragon with 1k life in 2 hits ..... i will ask again how do you heal 500HP in a single moviment? because if he hits the pet and take 500HP, i will heal around 150HP if i got luck, next hit of best wax takes another 500k .... are you doing the math?

The same chalenge i made Ghost i let for you .... create a player acount ... go there with a good pet like legendary wyrm level 30 and try ..... after that we can talk .....

I will ask Exodus, if he reads me, if he goes there with a pet and if he can avoid the pet from die? I will ask him when he goes there if he goes with or without pet .... and Exodus .... let this may be clear, i am not criticizing you in any way .... i am just quoting you because i do belive you are a great player, i do admire you! .... just for that.

I do understand Falkor that this shard is a no skill cap one, so we can use another ways to do things and kill mobs and monsters, but i will still defend that this shard is not a balanced one, tamers here die more easy than ant other build, that this shard is design to kill pets ..... and if a player likes to use tamer build dont come to here because that player will be very disapointed ....

And yes Falkor ... i can use this to say if this shard is balanced or not .... because in this matter is not balanced .... in others subjects may be balanced but nt in this one ..... i say this as a tamer that i like to be ..... and after see what roles here i am disapointed .... i just stay here because the friends i made .... and because i can play in other builds ... but not the one i apreciate the most ...... for me, you staff kill this here .....

You say Falkor "You can't pick a single sword, pet, or magical item and run over all the mobs in the game with it.", let me say that you are right .... i can't kill Chuck Noris with a simple gear, a common sword or bow, but with the right gear we can solo it, i saw Justin do it one time. But if we think that to get a nice set of armor and weapons take time, and so to tame the right pet, a good pet, let say a Steel Steed, a Cu Sidhle, a Legendary Wyrm, a tamer can't solo with that Chuck Noris ..... i never saw someone try to kill Chuck with Bio Pet so i will not enter in this discution....

Falkor, in some time playing i am forced to play with another thing .... not with what i want to play .... do you understand that? and that my friend is not fun .....

I dont use Shadow Walkers words inmy text, because i do belive that others that like to kill things as warriors or spellcasters can not suffur what tamers does, i just say that is unfair to the ones that like that build, because we are forced to play as another thing as tamers ..... and following this thought, let me say there is NO BOSS, DUNGEON OR PERLLE that can't be done without pet? do you get me? i got bosses, dungeons and another things that tamer can't do, but there isn't in the shard quests, dungeons and bosses that people without pet can't do .... that is unbalaced .... sorry to tell you this!

Again ... thanks for your time!

Forgepriest