To the staff

[zeigfried]

Well - my message to the staff is a heartfelt thank you for the work that you do in providing this awesome world to relax and enjoy. Even with donations, I'm willing to bet WP doesn't put food on the table - and that you'd still provide something like this that my wife and I can just connect to and enjoy - that we can actually really enjoy, because it is actually family friendly like advertised - is just something I really find outstanding. My RL job is a computer programmer and I tried to make my own shard - and even with the programming skills getting the shard to any appreciable level of unique customization did take long hours - and it wasn't even close to WP. Let alone developing events and storyline!

I hope that any newcomers are not put off because this is truly a great place to play. I probably shouldn't add onto this post since it was started with a personal attack which never really leads anywhere good, but I can't help it because I do really like this shard and hate to see any one of the staff whom graciously work to provide it get a bad rap.

I'm not privy to exactly what happened (that I know of) and prefer to keep it that way - I miss playing with SlickBlade. Slick, ordinarily you have always been very friendly and easygoing to work with. So I certainly hope I or Cate didn't contribute to your losing enjoyment. We are very surprised something went so wrong so as to elicit your first post on this thread.

I've played UO on and off for years now, and although I think I'm still a "noob" in skill level I've been around long enough to notice trends in player behavior. And unfortunately the trend seems to be that the more skilled a player is and the longer the time investment, the more that, despite claims its just a game, that UO becomes more RL than actual RL to the player. And more unfortunately, when communication over the internet gets really personal things get taken wrong and really heated up - almost like the road rage phenomenon. In that case the layer of separation is the car - over the net the layer is (typically) only being able to read 10% of what the person is saying because its in text (unless it was discussed by phone or in person which I doubt).

Perhaps to be the best UO player you really have to get so engrained but I prefer to focus on just fooling around and having fun. That's why I look for a family type shard. I like that WP does have some hard-core challenges but not the hard-core mentality. I've found that most shards with a focus on getting really ingrained in it to the point of it being RL also have filthy language, bullies, and constant arguments over virtual property like its RL property. That, and in those shards the new players are a lower class and let know about it. With RL stress I certainly don't need more with a bunch of people trying to kill my character (on a PK shard) or else regarding me as a lower life form because I'm not the most skilled. Not to say they are bad shards - just not friendly for a person like me whom I consider myself an average 9-5 family guy.

Which is why I love WP because I really can't think of a thing another player could do legally inside the rules set forth on the shard that would upset me to the point of leaving or posting negatively on the public forums. If I ever really get into a big disagreement with another guild member I'm more than willing to appeal to the leader and failing that relinquish everything I've ever received from the guild - and go play
alone or with other groups of players. If I get harassed by anyone I'm more than sure if I could provide evidence the staff would handle it quickly and correctly. And from the dungeons and spawns, even with the stat bonuses there still appears to be plenty of challenge to go around.

I may from time to time ask the staff for something but I fully understand that I'm not paying for their time and they don't owe me a cent. In reality, I really owe them because I'm having fun on their dime. They've got every right to throw me out anytime, just because they don't like me or its a rainy day. I'm not sure how skilled, tenured, or whatever you have to be to be able to trivialize that but I hope I never get there.

So, given the situation of being provided the closest thing to a free lunch I've ever seen, really any criticism (or even a suggestion for improvement that could be taken as criticism) made by someone not directly doing the work to keep up WP should be preceded and followed by a heartfelt compliment and token of appreciation. If things are so irreconcilable that this level of civility cannot be maintained, despite it admittedly being "just a game" then it is definitely high time to take a hiatus and/or move to another land. And if you feel the experience was so bad and the need to tell others there are other UO forums where you can describe this - placing criticisms in this forum when you don't plan on playing here anymore really is just trolling.

I really think the virtues are important aspect of some of the first Ultima games and wish the newer ones kept you thinking about them some more. Slickblade, given your skill and abilities you'd be the Avatar except you set your humility back to 0 by letting someone get to you to the point you turned around and retaliated. If the game is getting really personal, use it as an opportunity to practice the virtues. I don't know what the spirit of UO currently is (for EA, probably just making money) but I know that was the spirit of the original UO games.

As the sign on the top of the site says, Be Nice, Play Nice, Have Fun. Even if the third part isn't working for you, you and you alone are still responsible for the first two and the freedom to roam other lands.

Thank you for all your help to me in the game. But SlickBlade although I greatly respect your abilities as a player I do firmly ask that you retract your statement regarding GhostRiderGrey - no matter what he possibly could have done to you I still find the personal attack in a public forum offensive. Also, this is a fun place for my wife and I to play and I hope it stays around for a long time to come - there are much better ways to provide constructive criticism than dogging the owner and possibly causing him to just say the heck with it. With this economy my wife and I treasure all the fun activities we can get and hope we can hold on to this one.

Again, my thanks go out to the WP staff for all the hard work. I don't make any claim that staff has handled everything perfectly (although I can say I've not personally witnessed any lapses in judgment during my month or so here) but I do feel all the staff should be very proud of what they've accomplished. And I think I do speak for the majority of players in saying that it is very much appreciated.

[SlickBlade]

Hey Luke,

Never know maybe we'll meet again somewhere hehe . I will not take back what I said towards Ghost as it was unfair to me. If you want to hear what happened pm me and I will give you my email, and it wasn't just me that felt this way, but better for you not to know might spoil it for you a bit as well.

You are right though, the longer you play and the more time you spend playing the more UO becomes RL... Things can and do get personal over pixels =/ But it's not like I snapped for no reason and my reason was not over ingame issues.

While playing I did donate to help out and I don't regret it a bit but do regret the way things ended, yet I do not regret my decision.


P.S. I am impressed though that I haven't been banned and this was actually discussed , big thank you for that.


W.P. is not a bad place, I did really like it. Players are nice and helpful. Even though I got to the point where gold or tokens didn't mean much to me there was still plenty to do and more that I didn't get to do. I wanted to be a part of W.P. and I was starting to feel close to veterans.. then "boom" one incident after another and all fun gone..

[vapress]

Hmm, if anyone were to start trading PMs over such issues they will have to listen to the other side of the story. A mature person will not just listen to one side. Hence, I feel this may get too far off. Since you decide to leave, why don't you go graciously? Everyone has faults and I believe it takes 2 hands to clap (although a "bite" on a certain limb can send it "clapping" on another, thus the aftermath as we are seeing here)

I have to agree with Luke that it is not nice to attack ANYONE on a public forum. No offense Slick, but your actions in this (and not seemingly ready to retract your words and/or being defensive) seems to tell people that you are not mature enough to handle this. Yes, I believe there are other people who share your thoughts, but there are also countless others who doesn't. You spoke of doing things you don't feel is wrong - and you still fix it to make others happy. Why don't you look at it on another angle and see that what you feel is right, others may feel its wrong, because it may affect people (or things) indirectly. While of course, things that you feel are wrong, it may be right in other people's point of view. I believe the staff of WP has foresight and is looking "far" to prevent things that may happen.

Regarding noobs come flaming at you, who are noobs and who aren't noobs? How do we consider one as noob? For all we know, some "junior" WPians (new word ) here may well be more experienced than most of those that hang around WP. Why don't we learn to accept what everyone says about us? So that we can be a better person, to be happier, and to "level up" in life? Maybe the comments stated were only singled out at a particular sentence made? Much like a person A can lament about person B on his negative traits, then comes person C that says "hey he does has ONE (just take it as one) good trait", and everyone agrees, does that means that he is chucking you away and agrees wholeheartedly on EVERYTHING he said? I don't think so. To think of it that way, in my opinion, is not mature and not objective.

In my end note I will say let's all be gracious, and leave our unhappiness behind and move forward. You are a great player and I hope to play alongside with you again if there's a chance.

[zeigfried]

Slickblade - thanks for the kind response. But I do not want to hear your side or the staff's side for the fact it is simply not my business. My only purpose for posting is to publicly express my appreciation for the shard and staff for things that they do do right, and to suggest private things be kept private. If an issue has a public component please consider describing it objectively with suggestions for improvement and without belittling individuals - for the benefit of all players. See the champ spawn etiquette or lockpicking rants/flames for examples. If it is an out-of-game issue altogether consider not posting in the game forum at all...

I realize this is the flame/rant section but its still firstly a family shard and a key thing in a good family is for the older members to set a good example for the younger ones - by being gracious even though wronged one exercises the ability to rise above a situation. It is not a sign of weakness but one of strength.

So save up the retribution for the fearsome beasts that I know you shall be felling in the lands you next travel! I have enjoyed playing with you very much and wish you luck, gold, and glory wherever you go.

[SlickBlade]

Ahh guys..

It's one thing to talk about it and judge when it didn't happen to you, yet when this happens to you (hopefully not any time soon but it might) you will see how it really makes you feel and how you will really react to it (talking is one thing but when it happens to you its different and this was sort of on a personal level).

Sorry to clear it up "Noob" in my eyes is someone who is new on a shard but acts as if he already knows everything and tries to keep up with the vets but one on one he's helpless. PVM is great for this shard but PVP still shows who's got the button pushing to a precise second lol "Noob" is not an offensive word but rather a rank title according to time spent and skill, similar to "Young " title but for some it lasts longer

I guess I just felt that I had something else left to say..

I do not wish to take back my words out of pride not maturity , it doesn't matter to me who is who respect is respect and to get some you need to give some irrelivent of your status. Staff of a shard is useless unless there are players, so staff needs players to keep the shard going, it's odd that so many come and go isn't it? Maybe there's something that needs to be attended that players need or ask for instead of trying to make it too much the way staff wants it? And like was said earlier by staff "it IS our shard" well that's not a good way too look at it at all unless you want to play here yourself... Players should run the shard while Staff keeps the shard stable and under control (that doesn't mean control every little aspect and act like a god). But you guys seem like you know what you are doing so carry on that same road

And in my end note I will say.. Good Luck to all , May this shard live a long time, Thank you staff for letting me play here, I apologize for anything taken personal I'm a straight forward type of guy, and to all... don't judge and throw your suggestions unless you know exactly what happened and how it feels to be put in that situation, and if this post remains here don't take what I said as a reason not to join this shard but as something that happened to some player long time ago, hopefully both sides can learn something from this

P.S. This is probably the end of UO for me I've spent too much time starting over and don't have time to start again...

[DeVir Santi]

I understand hard feelings just don't go away. W.P. is also probably my last shard. I have no intentions of leaving. I just wanted to tell you things happen, no matter the intent and wish you a farewell SlickBlade, good hunting and Nee!!

[zeigfried]

Hi again -

I don't mean to keep prolonging this conversation but some points are brought up that may affect whether my wife and I continue to play the game of UO. And these are questions not just for the staff but any UO veteran who may be on here. I think there may be an aspect of the UO player community or what have you that I didn't previously understand.

To me, it seems that the provider of a free service - i.e. the hardware, bandwidth, coding, maintenance time and effort, as well as the original idea of providing the service owns the service and runs the service. Being as such I'd expect the players to respect the owners and staff, follow the rules, make suggestions, but otherwise focus on playing the game and leave the running of the shard up to the staff.

However, I think I'm beginning to understand that there a large number of UO players who feel that the owners of a UO shard owe them a favor just for showing up and playing on the shard. Specifically, the additional favor in having a say on how the shard is run beyond the original favor of being provided free entertainment in the first place. The rationale being that no players means it'd just be a private shard consisting of just the staff.

I personally am glad not all shard owners buy into this rationale because otherwise I'd not be playing UO. If you leave players run the shard you may attract more skilled players but typically these are the players who feel their say counts for more and things should be done their way because they are a better player and have been playing UO for a longer time. Like Slick was even saying in his discussion of "noobs" - they don't know as much - their opinion isn't worth as much - because they can't play as well as the veterans can. They should keep their opinions to themselves until they can push buttons faster and more precisely. There's even the suggestion of PvP as a way veteran's can show their superiority.

Are the new players ideas and suggestions going to get considered with equal weight to the veterans in this case? Not likely. The new players will get the representation the veteran's feel their "rank" is worth. And the problem with this ranking is it will be 90 percent or more based on the players skill and not their actual intelligence, education, or creativity.

If this is the generally accepted player mentality I might need to get out of UO. While I certainly expect some shards to be like that - in fact I'm even ok with the broad majority being like that - you'd think a place that is advertised as a family shard, with no PK/PvP except for special events, would and could be different.
Maybe its because I live in America, but in that country we believe all people are created equal, and we have laws and law enforcement to prevent people from taking charge and running things just because they are stronger or faster or better at a particular sport. It isn't Sparta.

So whereas I'm all for game realism, some aspects of modern civilization I'd still like to carry over into any game or sport involving interaction with other people. That's why I stay out of PvP shards, heavy role playing shards, or shards advertised as player-run. I read the rules to make sure there are reasonable bounds on player behavior. And most importantly, that what staff says is final - that staff exerts authority. Because otherwise there will be players who come in and try to make the shard Sparta - who will attempt to rationalize their way into running the shard.

I think I've seen maybe two or three shards out of hundreds that actually advertise and follow through on family friendliness and this is the only one I've seen with a focus on being nice, playing nice, and having fun. Maybe in the short term a lot of players will come and leave because they don't get their way - but maybe thats because a lot of players whom don't like the Sparta way of doing things have already given up on UO.

Or maybe I just don't have the right personality for UO and should get out of it? I do my best to give respect to the veteran players and show deference to them in game, especially if I'm in a guild - but overall I do feel staff's word is final, on issues that have a RL/human element to it as well as game element - such as being polite - truly treating it as a game - etc. I don't feel any player is superior to me personally just because they're better in the game. I will do my best to treat a new person coming in just as well as a 365 day + veteran = because that person very well may be more highly educated or may have given more back to society than I ever have. And certainly not write them off as "some noob" - the term may not be derogatory to me but it may well be taken as derogatory by them. Even if they bug me endlessly I'll either try to play elsewhere from where they're at, or in a severe case, report them as harrassing me to staff. And I wont judge them as being wrong because they are new or don't play as well but because they, in those cases, aren't following the rules.

Now I don't expect everybody to be this "old-fashioned" but some of the things I've talked about just are apparent to me as common rules of courtesy and common sense - however if this is out of touch with the spirit of the shard or UO, perhaps I should get out of it entirely. I enjoy the game and respect other players for their accomplishments and abilities, and am willing to show even more deference in a guild, but I don't want to be around folks who feel they really should be running the whole shard.

Some clean up notes also. If "starting over" is an activity that is a time-wasting grind I agree one should stop playing UO because one has made it into work instead of a game. My feeling is if you feel you have to grind to regain your "goodness" as a player one should start on a hardcore role playing or PvP / PK shard where you are very confident people including staff are going to respond to you in the Sparta-like fashion you expect they should.

And, you can't just blurt out a personal attack and ask people not to judge you. Assuming just for a minute Ghost did something horrendously bad to you there's legal recourse and if you don't feel the laws are doing enough for you then petition your government representative - if you live in a country that doesn't have that then move to the U.S. -- if you prefer vigilante justice you have the right to free speech and others have the same right to condemn the behavior as inappropriate. Because if people don't stand up for the norms of society pretty soon there wont be any norms and shortly thereafter probably not much of a society.

I really like WP because I think its rules and administration hit home with my sense of right and wrong - but perhaps in my own rant here I've offended a lot of players.

If I have, please let me know - I apologize in advance and I will also resign myself from UO. Otherwise I will continue to believe you can actually have a UO shard where there is competition and challenge but also an underlying sense of equality among players, respect for the authority of staff, and unifying mutual appreciation for the gift that is WP.


.... That's all. Thanks for your patience.

[Aust]

Hi again -

Maybe its because I live in America, but in that country we believe all people are created equal, and we have laws and law enforcement to prevent people from taking charge and running things just because they are stronger or faster or better at a particular sport. It isn't Sparta.

And, you can't just blurt out a personal attack and ask people not to judge you. Assuming just for a minute Ghost did something horrendously bad to you there's legal recourse and if you don't feel the laws are doing enough for you then petition your government representative - if you live in a country that doesn't have that then move to the U.S. -- if you prefer vigilante justice you have the right to free speech and others have the same right to condemn the behavior as inappropriate. Because if people don't stand up for the norms of society pretty soon there wont be any norms and shortly thereafter probably not much of a society.



.... That's all. Thanks for your patience.

America is not all created equal...If so homosexual groups will be allowed to marry, ALL of the political groups will get the same coverage as the democrats and republicans do, football players will not get away with crimes that will land anyone else in prison for 5 years the most they get is a slap on the wrist or house arrest. I would not say everyone in America is equal anymore this is not your grandpa's country anymore. Almost every US law enacted has a loop hole somewhere to get around it if you look hard enough, how do you think big corporations like Microsoft and Nike get away with so much stuff? Just my two cents worth you can regard it as useless or what ever you like.

P.S. A "noob" should have the same say as a veteran player does. How does his age affect what he has to say? A veteran player can be corrupted and say what he wants and suggest what he wants for his own gain as a "noob" can.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but this is how I feel.

[Storm]

Ok, I have been watching this topic and I feel we are starting to tread in dangerous waters here. Please let's try to stay on the topic at hand.

I don't feel that zeigfried was trying to say that "noobs'" opinions shouldn't have as much weight as veterans. In fact, I feel he was trying to state the opposite...everyone should be treated equally.

Personally, I find the term "noob" offensive. I have found that there are many players here that have far more experience with UO than I. However, I am not considered a "noob" but, they are because they are new to WP. While the worlds may change, the game is still basically the same. We've just put our own personal stamp on it. I also understand that there may be many who consider the term "noob" differently than I so, to each his own.

I will say that here on Whispering Pines we, the staff, listen to and consider each and EVERY opinion and suggestion, whether we agree with them or not. We also consider everyone's opinion and ideas equally. We don't look at the age of your character and think, "Well, so and so is only 7 days old, this is a fantastic idea but, we can't do it because he is so young" nor do we do the opposite and think "Well, so and so is 365 days old, this idea stinks but, it must work because he's been with WP for an entire year!" While all ideas and suggestions may not be implemented, I can honestly say that every time someone has made a suggestion we have talked it through as a team. We weigh the pros and cons, usually sleep on it, then, make a decision. I know this slows down the process and makes others learn some patience but, we have found that by doing this we do not make rash decisions and we can honestly say we have thought an idea through. We read the forums daily (sometimes multiple times a day) trying to keep up with what you, the players, would like to see here. Like I said we don't always implement the ideas but, we do at least consider them. We may not always post a reply right away or even at all but, that is usually because we are thinking about what we want to say before we even begin to post. It prevents us from answering in an abrupt manner.

Please let's try to move past this horrible situation with SlickBlade and continue what we do best...PLAY!!

Everyone remember our motto......Be nice, Play Nice, HAVE FUN!! See you in game!

[GhostRiderGrey]

Alrighty, this thread is starting to get off it's intended track. Slickblade and I had a difference of opinion. I let him have his say in this thread and will not be deleting the thread.

When dealing with a large group of people, everyone will have their own viewpoint, and sometimes those viewpoints can radically differ. Ultimately there needs to be someone in charge of the whole operation, in whom decisions ultimately rest. In the case of WP, that duty falls on me, with input from my staff and we understand that I may not always be agreed with.

The following is one such example: We try to make WP a fun, family oriented shard where players can have fun and parents don't mind having their children play. For that reason there is an auto-jail function for words deemed not appropriate for young ears. When the rule says "No swearing, cussing, foul language or blasphemy" we mean it. As staff is not on 24/7 to monitor language, the game automatically does it for us. If you type a word that gets you jailed (accidentally or not), realize that it was a word we would rather you not use (to protect young ears), mine the floor for jail rock, turn it in and continue playing. No big deal. Your gear is in a bag in your bank box, and any pets you had out were stabled.

Luke, I think WP is exactly what you thought it would be (what you described is what we are trying to create). Sometimes there will be differences of opinion. There will also be those who's play style does not mesh well with the vision of WP. Those players soon move on. For the rest of us, we enjoy WP and the environment it provides (and yes, each staff member DOES play on WP).

We had two guiding philosophies when we created WP. The first was to create a shard that WE would like to play on. The second is Be Nice, Play Nice, Have Fun!

I look forward to seeing you all on the shard.
GhostRiderGrey