I discover things *I* have crafted on Empire vendors !

[Neidling]

Hi everyone !

I am sorry to post this message in the "general discussions" section, but where else ?...

A while ago this morning, I went to look at what some vendors have for sale, and amongst other ones, I visited the Empire vendors, NE of Magincia.
What a surprise !, one of them sells weapons and pieces of armor *I* crafted some days or some weeks ago for Czarina, if I remember well, when she asked me if i could do so... Of course, this wasn't a problem, and I crafted these things with pleasure, as I do for many other players whose crafting skills are not completely raised yet.
It's very easy to see *I* was the one who made these things, as they wear the mark : "Exceptional - Crafted by Neidling".

Ok Czarina, *you* provided the platinum ingots and the runic hammer to craft them, but I was sure these objects were for your personal use, and I made them for free !
I am sorry but I think this is not correct at all to put them on your vendors, without even telling me or asking me first (You're right !, obviously I would have said no !), and to make money with them.

Empire vendors sell other things made by Ellie, Damien Hellfyre, or by Hel-Gar... These three people will tell us what they think of this behaviour (I'll be very interested in your reaction, Hel-Gar, as you have yourself seven vendors in your house...).

...
I don't want to be too long.
Please, Empire people, remove *my* things from your vendors !

[Exodus]

Hey Neidling,

I went and bought all items with your name on them off the vendor.

But don't take this as an admission of any guilt or that the acknowledgement that the action of putting the items on vendor is wrong.

To discuss this.. most good crafted items bear their makers mark. I do not believe it is or should be against shard rules to sell exceptional crafted gear on a vendor as the UO economy is based around user found and crafted items.

The items were all less than 1500g each and it appeared to me to be a good value for newer players to obtain the items and further their useful lifespan. It is a better alternative to trash for tokening them.

Ghost is the only person with exclusive rights to digital items and what we do with them, so his word is law in the matter.

Thanks
Ex

[Neidling]

Exodus,

Don't worry, I won't enter a long discussion about this, and after this message, I'll be done.
But...

- ...but I won't be given lessons about offering things to new -or not so new- players. I do it often enough...
Last time was yesterday, when I gave different rather good jewels to a player whose character had just been killed.
And some days ago, I gave 3 or 4 guardian's spells -like the ones your vendors sell for 20k- to a member of your guild who was missing them.
- ...but this discussion has nothing to do with the price of the considered items (That is the reason why I had crafted them for free). "I" am not that greedy, and I suppose "you" don't really care about 1.5k, while your vendors sell rare items for millions gp.
- ...but this discussion isn't either about the "law" of the shard. It is about courtesy and good manners.

Ty,
Neidling.

[Exodus]

Believe me, everyone in my guild is well taken care of. But this isn't about being generous, its about if the person who makes gear with their name on it has any say over the future use or sale of the item.

You said yourself the item was made with someone else's ingots and runic, and your skill so it's 2/3 theirs anyways. By your logic,the person u made it for is the majority owner.

I won't acknowledge the comment about my vendor prices or what matters to me with a response.

[Falkor]

As I recall, Czarina was cleaning house and placed many items for sale at low prices. I don't see any malicious motive here.

It is a slippery slope to claim perpetual ownership of items just because you crafted them. Give out of your own desire and kindness and realize that eventually the items may find a new owner via any number of ways.

[Neidling]

Ok, Falkor, I've read your post.
And I remember having also read that "What staff says is final, do not argue with them."

So I've just dismissed my vendor, and won't install a new one in the future.
I'm sorry, but I don't want to sell things at moderate prices -for this is what I always did- and find them proposed for higher prices on someone else's vendors (I know that this is not at all what Czarina did with my goods, but what would prevent this ?).

From now, I'll craft things "in private", for me, and for my friends in the game, as I know the items I'll craft for them won't be then sold for their profit.
These players already know they can ask me anything I'm able to do.
Concerning the new players, I'll give them what they need when I have it (or when I can make it), and I'll tell them please not to "sell" this stuff later (They of course will have the possibility to "give" it, when they don't need it anymore).
No problem : I'm not in the game to earn more gold than other players, sit on a throne in front of my bank chest, and smile while repeating "Oh my !..., I'm the most wealthy guy in WP !"

Debate over.
Neid.

Post-Scriptum : I don't claim for "perpetual ownership" of things I have crafted, and I think it's very nice to know that s'thing you gave to X has then being given to Y or Z, and is still used. Making s'thing "for free" and discovering it "for sale" is not exactly the same thing...

[GhostRiderGrey]

Wow, just wow. Can we all just take a step back and take a deep breath, it's Christmas after all?

The rule to not argue with staff is more an in-game thing. A freer flow of ideas is allowed in the forums.

One can never prevent someone from selling something they have, and they are free to name their price for it, be that a low price or a high price.

There is nothing to prevent someone from buying things at a given price and then selling them at a higher price. That is part of a free market. If the market will support such pricing, so be it (this applies to another situation that recently came up on the shard).

Claiming perpetual ownership of items is indeed a slippery slope. Was there an agreement in place that said gear could never be sold? I'm sure the items for the new player were crafted in good faith, and were appreciated in good faith when accepted. The new character grew, developed, and got better gear. What would be a sufficient amount of time to have passed before that new player could have disposed of the original crafted gear? A day? A month? A year? Can we not be happy that the gear helped the player out for the time it did? And if it is sold and then bought by someone else who can use it, can we not be happy that the item is still in use and being enjoyed?

I think Falkor summed it up nicely with this:

Give out of your own desire and kindness and realize that eventually the items may find a new owner via any number of ways.

-Ghost

[Neidling]

Ghost,

There are two classic theater authors we learn in France in our high schools.
There is a formula about them which says "Racine shows the world as it should be, Corneille shows it as it is".

I must be naïve.
We live in a world where trading and money are everywhere, and I'm probably wrong to dream of a game where people would be helpful instead of behaving as so many people do IRL.
When I first arrived in WP, I was given many things by some very friendly players. Sure I don't need them all anymore, but I never sold these : I kept some, and I gave many to new players who arrived after me.

Anyway, some players on WP are exactly what I hoped they would be : helpful and generous.
So maybe I'm not the only one to be so naïve...

Neid.

[GhostRiderGrey]

I see people being helpful and generous all the time in WP. We encourage that behavior because WP should be a fun place to play.

Not everyone is going to do with their gear what you think is right or correct. Their view of what is right and correct may be completely different from your view. That doesn't make either of you right or wrong, just different. (If rules were broken, then there would be a right and wrong, but none were)

Once again:

Give out of your own desire and kindness and realize that eventually the items may find a new owner via any number of ways.

Ghost

[Mesmerize]

I see no harm in reselling an item with someones crafted name on it. If the player no longer needs it why not sell it and let someone else have use out of it. Kinda like in the real world when you have a garage sale and sell your unwanted items, if your unwanted item had a name brand designers name on it... i'm sure that designer is not going to come back at you and say, hey you purchased that with my designer name on it you can't resell it. lol This is a game meant to be fun, why argue over something such as this?